Wednesday, November 08, 2006
Win-win, if you will
As per Crystal's suggestion to exchange ideas on abortion and a possible solution, i thought I would do more than merely complain about the inevitable shift farther and farther left unto some crazy dystopia a la Brave new World.
My stance, my actual belief:
1. I think a fetus is a life. [A lot of Christians would define a fetus as a life using Bibical scripture, and while I do think the scriptures they quote are inspired by God, I don't think these passages prove anything about the life in fetuses. The way the Bible inspires me to believe what I believe in this instance is God's command in the Old Testament telling the Israelites that murder is wrong. This, of course, depends on thinking of the fetus as a life, a conclusion to which I come more practically.] It cannot be a parasite, by definition, because a parasite is a foreign body. I suppose if the fetus is unwanted, it can feel like a parasite or an unwanted tumor, but if left alone, it will mature into a human being. Also, most humans will procreate on purpose. This means that what one woman may feel is a parasite, another woman longs for. If a woman, 8 months pregnant, who had a decorated room and tons of baby clothes, were to be shot in the stomach, we would mourn as if the shooter took two lives. The difference, then, seems to be the woman's preference, which cannot be a definition of life. Emotionally, I know too many heart-broken couples who cannot have children to think of abortion as acceptable. I've seen too many sonograms and felt too many kicks to compare a human fetus to a tapeworm. Granted, that's an emotional and not logical plea, but i think it's somewhat valid.
2. A woman has a right to a preference and a choice. The way abortion is treated right now is that it is hated by half the US population and heralded by the other half. This creates a lot of situations in women's clinics where a woman is pressured into either outright having an abortion before fully understanding all the ramifications, or she is pressured to not consider abortion as an option. I don't consider either one of these as protecting a woman's choice. I think that not providing or maybe requiring counseling before going through with an abortion is wrong, because as much as the woman may have the right, she also has the responsibility to know what it will mean and what her other alternatives are. Abortion is still a surgery and that always means risks. An abortion can result in the woman's losing the ability to have children in the future. There are plenty of other results. I personally believe that abortion should always be a last option after every alternative has been weighed, and perhaps not even then, and I'd like to think that most people would choose to selflessly give birth to the baby and keep it or give it away rather than abort it, but people don't do things because I think it's right.
3. The best way to discourage abortion in a society where it is an option is to decrease the stigma of pregnant teenagers and single mothers. This is a social answer to a social and moral dillema, but there's no way to enforce this. This way is not a quick solution, but this is the right solution. As long as parents make ultimatums like "I'll disown you," children will do whatever they can to hide from them. I think it is obvious that the best time and place to have kids is within a marriage or otherwise committed relationship, but i don't know why the alternative to "best" has to be so looked down upon. When my mom was growing up, the stigma kept most girls (or at least "more") from being sexually active as teenagers, but now we tell teenagers that they're supposed to have sex, just not have babies. Which makes no sense. All this to say, changing cultural stigmas is, at best, a difficult task.
4. Legally, I am a moderate on most issues and likewise on this one. I think that taking more permissive steps is the wrong direction. I think that taking more preventative steps is a pipe dream, unless the culture backs it up. At the risk of repeating myself, I don't know if there's any legislation that requires women desiring an abortion to go through any kind of counseling, but i do think that is important. And in more than a "don't teach me about politics and government, just tell me who to vote for" kind of way. I think that having a legal abortion is a right that comes with responsibility, and that is knowing the full ramifications of what you are having done.
My stance, my actual belief:
1. I think a fetus is a life. [A lot of Christians would define a fetus as a life using Bibical scripture, and while I do think the scriptures they quote are inspired by God, I don't think these passages prove anything about the life in fetuses. The way the Bible inspires me to believe what I believe in this instance is God's command in the Old Testament telling the Israelites that murder is wrong. This, of course, depends on thinking of the fetus as a life, a conclusion to which I come more practically.] It cannot be a parasite, by definition, because a parasite is a foreign body. I suppose if the fetus is unwanted, it can feel like a parasite or an unwanted tumor, but if left alone, it will mature into a human being. Also, most humans will procreate on purpose. This means that what one woman may feel is a parasite, another woman longs for. If a woman, 8 months pregnant, who had a decorated room and tons of baby clothes, were to be shot in the stomach, we would mourn as if the shooter took two lives. The difference, then, seems to be the woman's preference, which cannot be a definition of life. Emotionally, I know too many heart-broken couples who cannot have children to think of abortion as acceptable. I've seen too many sonograms and felt too many kicks to compare a human fetus to a tapeworm. Granted, that's an emotional and not logical plea, but i think it's somewhat valid.
2. A woman has a right to a preference and a choice. The way abortion is treated right now is that it is hated by half the US population and heralded by the other half. This creates a lot of situations in women's clinics where a woman is pressured into either outright having an abortion before fully understanding all the ramifications, or she is pressured to not consider abortion as an option. I don't consider either one of these as protecting a woman's choice. I think that not providing or maybe requiring counseling before going through with an abortion is wrong, because as much as the woman may have the right, she also has the responsibility to know what it will mean and what her other alternatives are. Abortion is still a surgery and that always means risks. An abortion can result in the woman's losing the ability to have children in the future. There are plenty of other results. I personally believe that abortion should always be a last option after every alternative has been weighed, and perhaps not even then, and I'd like to think that most people would choose to selflessly give birth to the baby and keep it or give it away rather than abort it, but people don't do things because I think it's right.
3. The best way to discourage abortion in a society where it is an option is to decrease the stigma of pregnant teenagers and single mothers. This is a social answer to a social and moral dillema, but there's no way to enforce this. This way is not a quick solution, but this is the right solution. As long as parents make ultimatums like "I'll disown you," children will do whatever they can to hide from them. I think it is obvious that the best time and place to have kids is within a marriage or otherwise committed relationship, but i don't know why the alternative to "best" has to be so looked down upon. When my mom was growing up, the stigma kept most girls (or at least "more") from being sexually active as teenagers, but now we tell teenagers that they're supposed to have sex, just not have babies. Which makes no sense. All this to say, changing cultural stigmas is, at best, a difficult task.
4. Legally, I am a moderate on most issues and likewise on this one. I think that taking more permissive steps is the wrong direction. I think that taking more preventative steps is a pipe dream, unless the culture backs it up. At the risk of repeating myself, I don't know if there's any legislation that requires women desiring an abortion to go through any kind of counseling, but i do think that is important. And in more than a "don't teach me about politics and government, just tell me who to vote for" kind of way. I think that having a legal abortion is a right that comes with responsibility, and that is knowing the full ramifications of what you are having done.
# posted by Adam @ 7:45 AM 
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Well I thought perhaps, I would take this time to explain myself so that perhaps we can both understand the other side of the argument. Perhaps not agree, as I don't expect us to. But coming to an understand about why some one feels the way they do, I think, is important.
1. Life is hard to define. We still can't even decide if viruses are alive. And while thats a bit more technical that is this fetus alive, I think it bears noting that the science community can define life. For me I can remove the warm and fuzzy feelings about babies and look at the definition of a parasite and parasitism
Parasite:
1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return
Parasiteism: an intimate association between organisms of two or more kinds; especially : one in which a parasite obtains benefits from a host which it usually injures
A fetus will actually strip calcium from a mothers bones and leave her deficient. It will consume iron which will leave the mother anemic. The fetus -takes- what it needs from the mother regardless of the ramifications for the mother. One mother may willingly give these things, another mother may not. But in both cases the fetus is 'acting' like a parasite. Wanted or unwanted, the thing acts like a parasite.
Its hard for me to think that something that needs someone else to live is truely alive. If we hooked you up to Bob to keep you alive, but it taxed Bob (decreasing his life span etc) to keep you hooked up to him, I am afraid I am the mindset, that you would need to be cut off. Your just being a parasite on Bob.
As for counseling, all the clinics I know of that perform abortions require counseling and generally a three day wait. They ask all the questions about considering adoption, are you sure you want to abort etc. Planned Parenthood will even tell you, rather graphically, what they will do to remove the fetus and the inherent risks associated with it such as the potential to never have kids again or die. It is a surgical proceedure and they wont lie to you about it. The places that perform abortions not only have to protect themselves legal so they want to make sure your sure you want to abort, but they also generally care about their patients. If they don't do it, some people will go get the coat hanger or take the herbs and -that- can most definatly be fatal to the mother and baby. Abortion clinics are there for people who really want to terminate the pregnancy, not people who are unsure.
I do agree that we need to say that its okay to have a teenage or unmarried Mom. France has this policy and it seems to work fairly well for them.
I don't think the no no to sex thing will work now. People see it everywhere and understand it. Its not some hush hush thing any more where kids don't understand you insert tab A into slot B. I also think that some sexual discovery, even if its just self discovery is healthy for a human. I don't thinks sex should be repressed or shunned as a bad thing. I think we need to stress its something people who love each other do. It is to casually placed in movies and ads currently to convey that meaning. I think sex has just lost its 'specialness'.
But now I am out of time, I need to get ready for class. Perhaps we understand each other a bit better? I enjoy conversations about who believes what and why as long as they are non combative or converting. At least I hope I didn't come off that way, the ideas above are just mine, its how -I- feel and it works for me. It wont work for everyone.
Thanks for sharing Adam, your views are a bit different than a few other Christians I have talked to. As a side note of understanding your personal beliefs, do you believe an abortion is 'okay with God' if the pregnancy might kill or hurt the mother? Just curiouse on your views.
1. Life is hard to define. We still can't even decide if viruses are alive. And while thats a bit more technical that is this fetus alive, I think it bears noting that the science community can define life. For me I can remove the warm and fuzzy feelings about babies and look at the definition of a parasite and parasitism
Parasite:
1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return
Parasiteism: an intimate association between organisms of two or more kinds; especially : one in which a parasite obtains benefits from a host which it usually injures
A fetus will actually strip calcium from a mothers bones and leave her deficient. It will consume iron which will leave the mother anemic. The fetus -takes- what it needs from the mother regardless of the ramifications for the mother. One mother may willingly give these things, another mother may not. But in both cases the fetus is 'acting' like a parasite. Wanted or unwanted, the thing acts like a parasite.
Its hard for me to think that something that needs someone else to live is truely alive. If we hooked you up to Bob to keep you alive, but it taxed Bob (decreasing his life span etc) to keep you hooked up to him, I am afraid I am the mindset, that you would need to be cut off. Your just being a parasite on Bob.
As for counseling, all the clinics I know of that perform abortions require counseling and generally a three day wait. They ask all the questions about considering adoption, are you sure you want to abort etc. Planned Parenthood will even tell you, rather graphically, what they will do to remove the fetus and the inherent risks associated with it such as the potential to never have kids again or die. It is a surgical proceedure and they wont lie to you about it. The places that perform abortions not only have to protect themselves legal so they want to make sure your sure you want to abort, but they also generally care about their patients. If they don't do it, some people will go get the coat hanger or take the herbs and -that- can most definatly be fatal to the mother and baby. Abortion clinics are there for people who really want to terminate the pregnancy, not people who are unsure.
I do agree that we need to say that its okay to have a teenage or unmarried Mom. France has this policy and it seems to work fairly well for them.
I don't think the no no to sex thing will work now. People see it everywhere and understand it. Its not some hush hush thing any more where kids don't understand you insert tab A into slot B. I also think that some sexual discovery, even if its just self discovery is healthy for a human. I don't thinks sex should be repressed or shunned as a bad thing. I think we need to stress its something people who love each other do. It is to casually placed in movies and ads currently to convey that meaning. I think sex has just lost its 'specialness'.
But now I am out of time, I need to get ready for class. Perhaps we understand each other a bit better? I enjoy conversations about who believes what and why as long as they are non combative or converting. At least I hope I didn't come off that way, the ideas above are just mine, its how -I- feel and it works for me. It wont work for everyone.
Thanks for sharing Adam, your views are a bit different than a few other Christians I have talked to. As a side note of understanding your personal beliefs, do you believe an abortion is 'okay with God' if the pregnancy might kill or hurt the mother? Just curiouse on your views.
edit: And while thats a bit more technical than is this fetus alive, I think it bears noting that the science community cannot define life.
Rereading what I wrote, thats a bit jumbled, the whole article. Thats what I get for writing it when I first wake up, but I hope you got the general idea of what I was trying to say.
Again, thanks for sharing Adam!
Rereading what I wrote, thats a bit jumbled, the whole article. Thats what I get for writing it when I first wake up, but I hope you got the general idea of what I was trying to say.
Again, thanks for sharing Adam!
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